I get the saying, but if you piss off anybody you disagree with enough, they’re gonna hate you. I had a discussion with a friend about this very saying the other day. It also reeks of No True Scotsman.
The problem with this idiom is that it essentially just says there’s no such thing as [liberals], and that everybody but [True Scotsmen] are [not fascists], which is just absolutely not true.
It essentially leaves zero space for anybody to disagree with you, ever. Since as soon as they do, they should be treated as fascists, which is implied to be the absolute evil.
Which, okay, if that’s how you really feel, then that’s great for you, but then anybody who feels even remotely different is gonna see how absolutely tyrannical you are and move away. This is the exact attitude why people feel communists are either fucking dumb and annoying, or are actively right wing agents acting as a smear campaign against communism and leftism in general.
So, to conclude:
A) it’s not true
B) it’s not effective
C) it’s problematic as hell
D) it’s often outright counterproductive
You could just easily say like “why the fuck are so many moderate dems so shitty when it comes down to it?” I know you want to differentiate yourself from them as much as possible. And realistically, a LOT of people know and agree with you. But this is still not the way.
I can concede the sentiment sure. I’m sure there are well meaning liberals but there is a certain point when pressed where they either move left to resist growing fascism, or they become Haley Stevens. Fence sitting only gets people so far.
For most people, they’re along for the ride, and out of fear or whatever reason, cannot act. Challenging them by equating them to fascists is such a risky strategy. It OFTEN goes the wrong way. I do not have a good solution, but I do know and am concerned over the risks.
Sure and to the average voter that statement doesn’t really apply the ‘average voter’ also isn’t going to find themselves on Lemmy. I imagine to be frank the “average voter” thinks libs and the left are the same thing. To liberal POLITICIANS - It absolutely does. As for why I bring it up here, Lemmy, yes even .world has a left bent, people will be exposed to the saying on Lemmy it’s important to call it out when it happens.
No you just don’t know how politics works. Liberals and Fascists are ideologically alligned on most things. Liberals are just more into trying to whitewash their atrocities and use legalism as a shield. Fascism is just the final form of liberalism once all the fake smiles are gone. There’s PLENTY of ideologies that aren’t fascist. Liberalism and Fascism both fall into the category of corporatocracy. Rule via Corporations. and the wider category of capitalism. They are both right wing ideologies. Both anti-communist. etc. They have a LOT in common.
Okay so, I do understand how the values differ. But I also know how being a dick to people makes them feel. It basically never wins them over. People put up their walls super fast as soon as they sense an agenda or hate. And yes, people can intuit hate in text over the internet.
So like when you start off your response to my consideration of an idiom with “no you just don’t understand how politics works” you sound like a child. You’re also entirely missing my point. I KNOW that fascism and capitalism are neighbors. I know that VERY well. There’s literally no need to condescend at me over this. You’re wasting your energy trying to explain to me this stuff because you’re preaching to the choir.
Your goal is to convince those people to rethink what they’re doing. And what YOU’RE doing is basically going “i am so smart and you’re a fascist” and then attacking them. That’s stupid as hell, and if anyone, you are the one that doesn’t understand how people work in systems where they believe they are free. Your strategy works when people are afraid of disagreeing with authority - which “liberals” are very much not. Liberals are afraid of disagreeing with money since they put it on a pedestal. So if you want to win those hearts, you have to speak their language and explain to them why that philosophy is bad.
For example: “money isn’t everything, and morality is important” will get responded to with “but I have to pay the bills” which you could respond with “what about all the harm you’re doing by your inaction which results in the companies and rich growing in power by YOUR SUBMISSION and executing atrocities?” Which then gets the real conversation started.
Saying you are a fascist and telling people how close capitalists are to Nazis is a waste of time and everybody’s walls going up and nothing changing, it’s a literal losing strategy, no matter if it’s true or not.
… What? No? Not even remotely. Though your super hostile questioning of that is, in itself pretty worrying. I mean no offense and am literally trying to break bread with you. Though if you continue… whatever this is, this conversation may end.
What a bizarre turn of attitude… maybe you think I’m acting out at you? If I’ve said something to offend you, I apologize, it wasn’t my intent. Though, maybe it wasn’t a turn of attitude at all?
But yeah, literally …Um, what? Maybe you’re trying to troll somebody else? Freudian mask slip? My feelings are not hurt, my day is not ruined, who are you, again?
You’re complaining about my tone and projecting your goals on to me. I am not trying to “convert” liberals. It’s annoying when you seem to think you know what I’m trying to do and tell me how I’m doing it wrong. When in reality we have entirely different goals. And we don’t agree on this stuff. Capitalism and fascism are not “neighbors” they’re the same fucking thing. That’s the entire point I was making earlier.
Your goal is to convince those people to rethink what they’re doing.
Not it isn’t. When I make a comment under someone I think is wrong I am not trying to change their mind. I am simply stating for anyone else who might also disagree with them that they are not alone in that. I have no interest in recruiting and allying with liberals. That’s just silly. Might as well try explaining to a Nazi why they shouldn’t be a Nazi.
I am literally telling liberals that I think they’re disgusting Nazi apologists. Why would I want to convert those people to my side?
So, I’ll admit maybe I was too dissmissive to you, and that I just sent that as a digital middle finger after reading you complaining about my tone without bothering to read the rest of what you said. I don’t agree with you though, and we don’t share the same goals or views. I’m not going to spend 2 hours laying out all the things I think but I can tell we’re quite different in how we see things. Like I said tho I’m not interested in changing your mind. So you keep on trying to make liberals see the light. As unfun as that sounds…
Your goal is to convince those people to rethink what they’re doing.
Not it isn’t. When I make a comment under someone I think is wrong I am not trying to change their mind. I am simply stating for anyone else who might also disagree with them that they are not alone in that. I have no interest in recruiting and allying with liberals
Have you considered that making them rethink what there are doing didn’t need to recruit them? In terms of strategy against the enemy, sowing seeds of doubt, mistrust, concern, alarm, is a time and battle tested strategy to weaken them.
The advice you are so against didn’t suggest you turn them into an ally, they can be tools to make it harder for the enemy to act in unison, which makes your true goals easier to achieve.
Seems like you are actively avoiding listening to a methodology that you would benefit from.
I get the saying, but if you piss off anybody you disagree with enough, they’re gonna hate you. I had a discussion with a friend about this very saying the other day. It also reeks of No True Scotsman.
The problem with this idiom is that it essentially just says there’s no such thing as [liberals], and that everybody but [True Scotsmen] are [not fascists], which is just absolutely not true.
It essentially leaves zero space for anybody to disagree with you, ever. Since as soon as they do, they should be treated as fascists, which is implied to be the absolute evil.
Which, okay, if that’s how you really feel, then that’s great for you, but then anybody who feels even remotely different is gonna see how absolutely tyrannical you are and move away. This is the exact attitude why people feel communists are either fucking dumb and annoying, or are actively right wing agents acting as a smear campaign against communism and leftism in general.
So, to conclude:
A) it’s not true
B) it’s not effective
C) it’s problematic as hell
D) it’s often outright counterproductive
You could just easily say like “why the fuck are so many moderate dems so shitty when it comes down to it?” I know you want to differentiate yourself from them as much as possible. And realistically, a LOT of people know and agree with you. But this is still not the way.
I can concede the sentiment sure. I’m sure there are well meaning liberals but there is a certain point when pressed where they either move left to resist growing fascism, or they become Haley Stevens. Fence sitting only gets people so far.
For most people, they’re along for the ride, and out of fear or whatever reason, cannot act. Challenging them by equating them to fascists is such a risky strategy. It OFTEN goes the wrong way. I do not have a good solution, but I do know and am concerned over the risks.
Sure and to the average voter that statement doesn’t really apply the ‘average voter’ also isn’t going to find themselves on Lemmy. I imagine to be frank the “average voter” thinks libs and the left are the same thing. To liberal POLITICIANS - It absolutely does. As for why I bring it up here, Lemmy, yes even .world has a left bent, people will be exposed to the saying on Lemmy it’s important to call it out when it happens.
No you just don’t know how politics works. Liberals and Fascists are ideologically alligned on most things. Liberals are just more into trying to whitewash their atrocities and use legalism as a shield. Fascism is just the final form of liberalism once all the fake smiles are gone. There’s PLENTY of ideologies that aren’t fascist. Liberalism and Fascism both fall into the category of corporatocracy. Rule via Corporations. and the wider category of capitalism. They are both right wing ideologies. Both anti-communist. etc. They have a LOT in common.
Omg people using legalism as a shield is so dumb…
Okay so, I do understand how the values differ. But I also know how being a dick to people makes them feel. It basically never wins them over. People put up their walls super fast as soon as they sense an agenda or hate. And yes, people can intuit hate in text over the internet.
So like when you start off your response to my consideration of an idiom with “no you just don’t understand how politics works” you sound like a child. You’re also entirely missing my point. I KNOW that fascism and capitalism are neighbors. I know that VERY well. There’s literally no need to condescend at me over this. You’re wasting your energy trying to explain to me this stuff because you’re preaching to the choir.
Your goal is to convince those people to rethink what they’re doing. And what YOU’RE doing is basically going “i am so smart and you’re a fascist” and then attacking them. That’s stupid as hell, and if anyone, you are the one that doesn’t understand how people work in systems where they believe they are free. Your strategy works when people are afraid of disagreeing with authority - which “liberals” are very much not. Liberals are afraid of disagreeing with money since they put it on a pedestal. So if you want to win those hearts, you have to speak their language and explain to them why that philosophy is bad.
For example: “money isn’t everything, and morality is important” will get responded to with “but I have to pay the bills” which you could respond with “what about all the harm you’re doing by your inaction which results in the companies and rich growing in power by YOUR SUBMISSION and executing atrocities?” Which then gets the real conversation started.
Saying you are a fascist and telling people how close capitalists are to Nazis is a waste of time and everybody’s walls going up and nothing changing, it’s a literal losing strategy, no matter if it’s true or not.
aw, did i hurt your feelings?
… What? No? Not even remotely. Though your super hostile questioning of that is, in itself pretty worrying. I mean no offense and am literally trying to break bread with you. Though if you continue… whatever this is, this conversation may end.
What a bizarre turn of attitude… maybe you think I’m acting out at you? If I’ve said something to offend you, I apologize, it wasn’t my intent. Though, maybe it wasn’t a turn of attitude at all?
But yeah, literally …Um, what? Maybe you’re trying to troll somebody else? Freudian mask slip? My feelings are not hurt, my day is not ruined, who are you, again?
You’re complaining about my tone and projecting your goals on to me. I am not trying to “convert” liberals. It’s annoying when you seem to think you know what I’m trying to do and tell me how I’m doing it wrong. When in reality we have entirely different goals. And we don’t agree on this stuff. Capitalism and fascism are not “neighbors” they’re the same fucking thing. That’s the entire point I was making earlier.
Not it isn’t. When I make a comment under someone I think is wrong I am not trying to change their mind. I am simply stating for anyone else who might also disagree with them that they are not alone in that. I have no interest in recruiting and allying with liberals. That’s just silly. Might as well try explaining to a Nazi why they shouldn’t be a Nazi.
I am literally telling liberals that I think they’re disgusting Nazi apologists. Why would I want to convert those people to my side?
So, I’ll admit maybe I was too dissmissive to you, and that I just sent that as a digital middle finger after reading you complaining about my tone without bothering to read the rest of what you said. I don’t agree with you though, and we don’t share the same goals or views. I’m not going to spend 2 hours laying out all the things I think but I can tell we’re quite different in how we see things. Like I said tho I’m not interested in changing your mind. So you keep on trying to make liberals see the light. As unfun as that sounds…
Have you considered that making them rethink what there are doing didn’t need to recruit them? In terms of strategy against the enemy, sowing seeds of doubt, mistrust, concern, alarm, is a time and battle tested strategy to weaken them.
The advice you are so against didn’t suggest you turn them into an ally, they can be tools to make it harder for the enemy to act in unison, which makes your true goals easier to achieve.
Seems like you are actively avoiding listening to a methodology that you would benefit from.
Just an opinion based on this exchange.