Hey, there you go again with your holocaust trivialization via Double Genocide Theory! You even directly mentioned gulags, which saw the overwhelming majority of their deaths during World War II, due to starvation from the Nazi invasion. You’re really committed to trivializing the Holocaust and demonizing communism, to the point that you copy and paste the same mantra over and over again as though it’s a magic spell.
You also seem to imply that European colonialism was the “greater answer,” considering you didn’t at all contest that European wealth was built off of the global south and that this is the reason for their heightened life expectancy before China managed to do so. I understand that this is what your ideology inevitably leads to, but it’s interesting to admit it so nakedly, intentionally or not.
As for Frank Dikötter, he is far from reliable. He essentially multiplied a baseline number of 30-32.5 million by 1.5 to get 45 million deaths, overgeneralized from anecdotes, pinned all of the famine on Mao in particular as though Mao was supernaturally influential over the weather and how every person in China acted, and collaborates with Radio Free Asia, a fascist US-regime backed news outlet designed to propagandize against China. It’s also worth noting that “opposition to the regime” is all that is listed, when we know of massacres committed by the opposition, such as the White Terror. Dikötter relies on selectively presenting evidence in order to paint a picture that appears full, but in reality is full of holes (a characteristic you share with him).
State retribution for tiny thefts, such as stealing a potato, even by a child, would include being tied up and thrown into a pond; parents were forced to bury their children alive or were doused in excrement and urine, others were set alight, or had a nose or ear cut off. One record shows how a man was branded with hot metal. People were forced to work naked in the middle of winter; 80 per cent of all the villagers in one region of a quarter of a million Chinese were banned from the official canteen because they were too old or ill to be effective workers, so were deliberately starved to death.
You’re really fragile, aren’t you? Why are you incapable of responding to the points I made? The source you provided is horrendous, and you keep repeating points tied to Holocaust trivialization.
The topic here is Mao. And according to Chinese archives,
state retribution for tiny thefts, such as stealing a potato, even by a child, would include being tied up and thrown into a pond
parents were forced to bury their children alive or were doused in excrement and urine, others were set alight, or had a nose or ear cut off
One record shows how a man was branded with hot metal
People were forced to work naked in the middle of winter
80 per cent of all the villagers in one region of a quarter of a million Chinese were banned from the official canteen because they were too old or ill to be effective workers, so were deliberately starved to death.
This comes, again, from Chinese sources. There is no chance of any ‘Western bias’ here.
Whatabouting such evidence and at the same time celebrating Mao, who was a mass murderer, is particularly repugnant.
If you go ahead with similar deflection, I won’t respond anymore.
Frank Dikötter may have used records, yes, but as I already said, he generalized from minor anecdotes. That’s why he multiplied a baseline number of 30 million into 45 million. The sources are Chinese, the presentation of the records is overwhelmingly western. This isn’t simply “whataboutism,” the selective presentation of information is the same tactic that Israelis use to portray Palestinians as terrorists.
Did millions die in famine? Yes.
Was it mismanaged? Yes.
Was it a deliberate campaign to starve the people of China? No.
And, taking that last point into account, we can contextualize that for all of Mao’s missteps, he still freed the country from imperialism, still freed women from foot binding, still ended famine in a country where famine was rampant, doubled life expectancy, and secured a future where China could be proud of itself. It is for those reasons that, in accordance with official CPC evaluation putting Mao as 70% good, 30% bad, he is beloved by the people of China.
Meanwhile, you have not once acknowledged that your deliberate rhetorical tie of communists to Nazis is a core component of Double Genocide Theory, nor have you corrected yourself when stating that colonialism was the correct path for European development. Even if your goal is to espouse your perceived virtues of European liberalism, you shouldn’t be undermining your own rhetoric through trivializing the Holocaust.
Was it a deliberate campaign to starve the people of China?
Yes, it was deliberate.
If you
throw people, including children, into a pond
cut off someone’s nose or ear
brand someone with hot metal
force people to work naked in the middle of winter
ban elderly or sick people from the official canteen and, therefore, starve them to death
then, of course, it is all done deliberately. You can’t do such things by ‘mistake’ … things like that are not simple mismanagement or something like that. They are deliberate crimes.
And, to make it all worse, Mao is even portrayed as a hero by official narratives. It’s not that they don’t condemn him, they literally celebrate him. He was a mass murderer as he stands in the line of history with the worst dictators like Hitler and Stalin.
I’m honestly curious now if your repetition of the same exact phrases equating communism to Nazism is truly organic, but I’ll assume it is. In any case, you have repeated Double Genocide Theory, and have not acknowledged nor challenged that point.
We’ve already established that Frank Dikötter is friendly with the CIA as a propagandist through his work with Radio Free Asia. We know that he selectively presents evidence, while reporting a narrative in line with the right-wing. We also know that he manipulates numbers off of gut feelings, and extrapolates from local anecdotes unscientifically. He’s also fringe in his opinions, and portrays local actions as though they were directly commanded by Mao, rather than autonomous decisions at a local level in the midst of the chaos of famine.
Felix Wemheuer in Famine Politics in Maoist China and the Soviet Union argues that it was ambitious industrialization that led to famine, not a desire to kill millions of Chinese citizens. This is from a western, liberal scholar, who correctly points out that even if the administration has responsibility for mismanagement, it did not have intent. The cases you brought up, that Dikötter selectively shared to provoke an emotional response, do not prove widespread intent to punish Chinese citizens.
Your narrative relies on Chinese people being stupid and incapable of understanding their own historical conditions. Chinese people celebrate Mao not because they are stupid, not because they are evil, but because with Mao came an end to famine, an end to footbinding, an end to imperialism, and the beginning of rapid improvements in living conditions. Even if there were errors along the way, some more major than others, Chinese people understand that the modern prosperity of China today began with Mao.
Hey, there you go again with your holocaust trivialization via Double Genocide Theory! You even directly mentioned gulags, which saw the overwhelming majority of their deaths during World War II, due to starvation from the Nazi invasion. You’re really committed to trivializing the Holocaust and demonizing communism, to the point that you copy and paste the same mantra over and over again as though it’s a magic spell.
You also seem to imply that European colonialism was the “greater answer,” considering you didn’t at all contest that European wealth was built off of the global south and that this is the reason for their heightened life expectancy before China managed to do so. I understand that this is what your ideology inevitably leads to, but it’s interesting to admit it so nakedly, intentionally or not.
As for Frank Dikötter, he is far from reliable. He essentially multiplied a baseline number of 30-32.5 million by 1.5 to get 45 million deaths, overgeneralized from anecdotes, pinned all of the famine on Mao in particular as though Mao was supernaturally influential over the weather and how every person in China acted, and collaborates with Radio Free Asia, a fascist US-regime backed news outlet designed to propagandize against China. It’s also worth noting that “opposition to the regime” is all that is listed, when we know of massacres committed by the opposition, such as the White Terror. Dikötter relies on selectively presenting evidence in order to paint a picture that appears full, but in reality is full of holes (a characteristic you share with him).
You’re really fragile, aren’t you? Why are you incapable of responding to the points I made? The source you provided is horrendous, and you keep repeating points tied to Holocaust trivialization.
I trivialize nothing.
The topic here is Mao. And according to Chinese archives,
This comes, again, from Chinese sources. There is no chance of any ‘Western bias’ here.
Whatabouting such evidence and at the same time celebrating Mao, who was a mass murderer, is particularly repugnant.
If you go ahead with similar deflection, I won’t respond anymore.
Frank Dikötter may have used records, yes, but as I already said, he generalized from minor anecdotes. That’s why he multiplied a baseline number of 30 million into 45 million. The sources are Chinese, the presentation of the records is overwhelmingly western. This isn’t simply “whataboutism,” the selective presentation of information is the same tactic that Israelis use to portray Palestinians as terrorists.
Did millions die in famine? Yes.
Was it mismanaged? Yes.
Was it a deliberate campaign to starve the people of China? No.
And, taking that last point into account, we can contextualize that for all of Mao’s missteps, he still freed the country from imperialism, still freed women from foot binding, still ended famine in a country where famine was rampant, doubled life expectancy, and secured a future where China could be proud of itself. It is for those reasons that, in accordance with official CPC evaluation putting Mao as 70% good, 30% bad, he is beloved by the people of China.
Meanwhile, you have not once acknowledged that your deliberate rhetorical tie of communists to Nazis is a core component of Double Genocide Theory, nor have you corrected yourself when stating that colonialism was the correct path for European development. Even if your goal is to espouse your perceived virtues of European liberalism, you shouldn’t be undermining your own rhetoric through trivializing the Holocaust.
Was it a deliberate campaign to starve the people of China?
Yes, it was deliberate.
If you
then, of course, it is all done deliberately. You can’t do such things by ‘mistake’ … things like that are not simple mismanagement or something like that. They are deliberate crimes.
And, to make it all worse, Mao is even portrayed as a hero by official narratives. It’s not that they don’t condemn him, they literally celebrate him. He was a mass murderer as he stands in the line of history with the worst dictators like Hitler and Stalin.
I’m honestly curious now if your repetition of the same exact phrases equating communism to Nazism is truly organic, but I’ll assume it is. In any case, you have repeated Double Genocide Theory, and have not acknowledged nor challenged that point.
We’ve already established that Frank Dikötter is friendly with the CIA as a propagandist through his work with Radio Free Asia. We know that he selectively presents evidence, while reporting a narrative in line with the right-wing. We also know that he manipulates numbers off of gut feelings, and extrapolates from local anecdotes unscientifically. He’s also fringe in his opinions, and portrays local actions as though they were directly commanded by Mao, rather than autonomous decisions at a local level in the midst of the chaos of famine.
Felix Wemheuer in Famine Politics in Maoist China and the Soviet Union argues that it was ambitious industrialization that led to famine, not a desire to kill millions of Chinese citizens. This is from a western, liberal scholar, who correctly points out that even if the administration has responsibility for mismanagement, it did not have intent. The cases you brought up, that Dikötter selectively shared to provoke an emotional response, do not prove widespread intent to punish Chinese citizens.
Your narrative relies on Chinese people being stupid and incapable of understanding their own historical conditions. Chinese people celebrate Mao not because they are stupid, not because they are evil, but because with Mao came an end to famine, an end to footbinding, an end to imperialism, and the beginning of rapid improvements in living conditions. Even if there were errors along the way, some more major than others, Chinese people understand that the modern prosperity of China today began with Mao.
I’m just amazed you got that account to make so many comments in a row. Usually they tap out after their 1st reply.
❤️💜❤️💜❤️ Cowbee