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This meme, while correct, demonstrates a misunderstanding of the argument.
“A man is not allowed to strike a woman, not even in self defense.” We live in a society where some version of this is drilled into every male child’s brain from a young age.
Nobody making this argument in good faith is gleefully responding to “equal rights for women” with “so I get to hit women”, because the fuckheads who want to hit women aren’t waiting for an excuse and are not mentally healthy.
Those who are making this argument in good faith could do with much better phrasing though. I prefer “Equal rights should include equal privilege.” If self defense against a female asaultant is their only concern, then it sounds like they just want to hit women. There are other issues that can and should be addressed, like a man not being able to pick up their own child or nibling from school without dirty looks or potentially having the cops called on him.
Don’t get me wrong, I understand perfectly well that in terms of privilege inequality, women have it worse. Women aren’t taken seriously by their doctors, or by the law, or in most contexts really. Women get paid less to do the same work. If a woman pursues her dreams instead of getting married and having kids, that’s sad. Women should not have to deal with any of this bullshit!
What I don’t know is how to wrap this up with a concise tldr without sounding like a whiny moid.
You have a point; there shouldn’t be any excuse for assaulting somebody. The patriarchal standards hurt us all and make the world less safe.
Also, you’re not a “moid.” Fuck that word
Sorry I’m old as fuck, what is a “moid”?
If you smush “female android” together you get “femoid”, and then removing the fe- you shorten it to “moid” for the male version.
It’s obviously derogatory and it’s meant to mean something akin to “someone with [all looks and] no brain”.
I’m actually surprised Urban Dictionary doesn’t have a better definition of femoid, but they do of moid.So bimbo and himbo respectively?
Bimbo/himbo are about types of people with aesthetics and cultural signifiers. Moid/femoid are just slurs against men or women that a person of the opposite gender doesn’t like
Yeah himbo doesn’t really have the same bite. A lot of women even like a good himbo. I overall prefer a little intellectualism but I can go for a good himbo too. I’ve mostly heard it associated with Brendan fraisers roles in his youth (George of the jungle / the mummy) It gives golden retriever energy or one of those gym rats that’s always telling the other dudes their muscles look great.
a moid is an asshole misogynistic male. The term stems from “femoid” which is a misogynistic term referring to women in general, usually said by moids who are also involuntarily celibate (incels).
I thank you for this knowledge.
I am disgusted to know it.
I apologize on behalf of my gender.
Don’t apologize for things outside your control. As a species, we are still trying to outgrow the tribalism, aggression, and desire for dominance that helped our ancestors survive. Stand firm against the sophists who exploit those old instincts rather than encourage us to rise above them.
You shouldn’t have to apologize because other people in your demographic suck.
to expand on this, I used the term moid in my original comment because I could see how my entire argument could be oversimplified to “not all men are assholes”, which is something moids say all the time when women complain about men.
Women get paid less to do the same work.
They don’t. They really don’t. Comparisons that suggest they do don’t compare “the same work” - they typically compare the median male and female total earnings which conceals a lot behind an assumption that men and women are identical aside from total pay. Once you start adjusting for things like role, industry, work hours, geography, seniority, etc the gap shrinks to nearly nothing and in some demographic cases (young, urban, single and childless for example) even flips the other way.
What flips it back though is then going deeper and asking why women are contained to certain job titles (usually with less pay) also, women don’t get paid equally in the work place when you consider any job that ever has an option for wage rises, because typically they never get them, or if they do they get a quarter of the rise against a man asking. They typically get passed over for promotions, over men, that counts as wage loss, they’re not less qualified, just passed over because woman. They did a blind test on orchestra applicants, and hid them behind a curtain so the people hiring couldn’t see gender, and then all of a sudden more women were being chosen, when previously that was not the case. Look at any male dominated industry (which typically has higher pay) and ask yourself why women aren’t equally populated there. All of that counts. And more! I think there’s like a set of steak knives too, or something.
There’s multiple effects. Its mostly just life “choices”
i think my grandma put it quite simple: “never be the one to start punching people. but if you do get punched, make sure you hit them twice as hard”.
she never cared about gender and never really even mentioned it. and that in a time, where gender roles where much stricter. she was the one that beat up a group of bullies, because she thought it was unfair how they treated others. played football with the boys, even though boys didnt want to kick balls with girls. but she just didn’t take ‘no’ for an answer. to show them, she just got better than most of them.
even though ske knew there is a difference between boys and girls, she never mentioned it. IMO this, combined with her being an absolute badass, takes all the wind out of these petty arguments. “i cant hit a girl”, “you better don’t, last time she beat you up”. or “i don’t want to play with a girl”, “understandable! she is simply better than you” etc.
No one says you can’t hit a woman in self defense, besides very stupid people deliberately trying to portray themselves as victims.
Maybe not where you live but many cultures do teach that. Not fighting back when a man attacks you is a sign of cowardice and weakness. Fighting back when woman attacks you is a sing of cowardice and weakness. If you never heard that you live under a rock.
That’s what my dad told me. However, he was a very stupid person who deliberately tried to portray himself as a victim, so I guess your point still stands.
I remember when I was a toddler, the neighbor toddler girl hit me in the face with her shoe. When I hit her back, I got in a lot of trouble and was told not to hit girls.
Would have been a lot more sensible if they said “no one should be hitting each other”
Yes. I’m sorry that happened to you, it’s not fair.
I’m curious how old you are. Millennial?
Yep! I’ve moved up into the 35-45 bracket on surveys and I do not appreciate the reminder of my growing age.
I am older gen Z and I got a bit of this (don’t hit girls) stuff in school but nothing as stupid as you described.
Also, why do people get into arguments over this to begin with? On the mens side specifically?
Like has it ever occured to them that maybe if you treat eachother right and with dignity that it won’t come to violence?
I get that people dissagree and even get a little grumpy at eachother sometimes, that’s human. But ffs, what are you 12?
If the assaulting side was reasonable this would work.
The problem is that people give the assaulting side more of a pass when it’s between men. The whole “boys will be boys/men can be rough with each other” mentality enables the violence at a systemic level.
They also tend to give it a pass when it’s woman on man battery. Same with rape.
Men can’t be vulnerable, which definitely fucks a lot of them up
Not just that, but many people believe that a man inherently can’t be a victim of a woman because men are statistically more likely to be the abuser (and those statistics aren’t super accurate because men under report for the reason you stated). Or because men are physically stronger.
There is significant overlap between those people, and the ones who think that all women are being raped when they have sex with a man, because patriarchy. It’s almost funny how sexist that belief is.
Because it gets drilled into most boy’s heads from a very young age that you are never to strike a girl, not even in self defense. Violence by women against men gets a pass to a degree that’s almost ridiculous, including sexual violence - though with sexual violence it’s baked into the systems and discussions around it to the point that I can actually find you quote from people involved with researching or dealing with sexual violence being pretty explicit about the double standard and treating it as obvious.
That’s a lie, no boy ever gets told he can’t defend himself.
The argument usually goes something like “okay a woman is beating on me I’m expected to just stand there and take it because if I retaliate at all I’m the aggressor somehow” like the whole “HOW CAN SHE SLAP?!?” Video where dude has like 20 Indian men come beat the fuck out of him for retaliating
If someone is beating on you, you should take the minnimal required action to make the beating stop which normally is just leaving but sometimes can including hitting or stabbing or shooting back.
But you never “get to” hit them just like you never “get to” be rescued from a burning car. It’s not a privilege, it’s a last resort you hope you never need and the day that you do need it is a sad, dark day.
Ultimately the issue is there’s two things people are talking about:
- Occasional situations when a man has to use self defense against a woman and is viewed as the perpetrator
- Guys being way to excited to assault someone
And people just talking past each other without being clear about which theyre talking about or disguising one as the other
There’s a difference between what some people think of as self defense.
The most obvious is to act in a way that prevents harm to one self - which would only involve violence as a last resort - but many guys seem to want to see it as “an eye for an eye”, which is a very different thing.
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That shit was so infuriating.
He almost got killed! To make it even more bizarre, the assailants were all yelling insults about the guy’s sister, like “Your sister is a whore!” Apparently, if you want to insult somebody in India, you say bad things about their sister.
I simply do not believe this conversation ever happened
what do you mean assaulting is illegal? these woke normies are running roughshod in this country and with this economy - this is not going to end well!
The only other karateka that’s ever knocked me out cold was a woman.
Roundhouse kick, right to the temple.
It was like the windows starfield screen saver, but r g b instead of white… then I was on ground, somehow.
Now that of course was consensual combat, kumite, sparring, in a controlled setting.
But if we really wanna get into this topic… tons of women physically assault men, as in, cross over the line from assault to battery. Tons of women domestically abuse their partners.
While 1 in 2 women (50%) report being the victims of intimate partner violence, 2 in 5 men (40%) do as well.
https://www.breakthecycle.org/domestic-violence-statistics/
Something like 85% - 90% of couples in the US are a male-female pair, so yeah, tons of men are physically assaulted by their female partners. Female on female IPV happens, male on male IPV happens, and I’m sure that nonbinary on nonbinary IPV happens, etc. Americans are basically just fucking violent.
I am all for the sexless and genderless standard of it never being ok to initiate physical violence, (outside of something like a clearly mutually consented to sparring bout), and that you should always do your best to de-escalate or simply flee a violent situation, that active self defense should always be a last resort.
Hopefully we can all agree that just as being generally physically stronger is not a valid justification to initiate violence, neither is being generally physically weaker.
Not to derail your excellent points about violence almost never being the answer to conflict, ESPECIALLY in personal relationships…
But is it wrong that I immediately thought you were referring to the Jordan Mechner classic game ‘Karateka’ from 1984?
Can’t say I’m familiar with that, lol.
Karateka is just the Japanese word for ‘Karate Practitioner’, like how a boxer boxes, a dancer dances, a painter paints.
Looking it up…
Oh, this is like one of the earliest fighting games!
No, no, that makes sense lol.
Like to think I fight in slightly higher resolution than that, but sure lol.
… well, at least when I am fighting and also conscious, hahahah!
Hopefully we can all agree that just as being generally physically stronger is not a valid justification to initiate violence, neither is being generally physically weaker.
Yes, and water is wet.
The source of this silly argument is not men arguing that it’s ok to assault women or initiate violence in any way. The original argument was about hitting back when being assaulted by a woman. It was a common believe* that you could never hit a woman, not even when you’re being assaulted. Then the "equal rights’ folks started saying “equal rights? so I can defend myself when woman attacks me same way as when a man does?”. I have no idea where the “you can just assault people” argument came from. I assumed it’s just a joke. I can’t believe people are seriously arguing against it.
*at least where I was growing up
I have no idea where the “you can just assault people” argument came from. I assumed it’s just a joke. I can’t believe people are seriously arguing against it.
They’re arguing against it because it’s a straw man, and they don’t want to say “Yes, you can defend yourself against a woman who is attacking you”.
I agree it’s a straw man but it’s so silly I think they are just trolling.
Also, I still think you can’t defend yourself against a women. Just walk away.
You should always just walk away, if you can. That’s good advice regardless of the gender of the person who hit you.
Any martial artist that isn’t full of shit and high on their own supply will tell you that self defense skills are only to ever be employed when you truly do not have any other option.
You always try to talk down a situation, look for or cause an opening to flee from a situation, or even just outright surrender/comply if that is likely to result in the actual immediate threat to yourself or others ending.
Even being robbed at gun or knife point, just give them your wallet.
You have a better chance of being able to replace your cards or id or phone than you do of surviving a close range gunshot or serious knife wound.
You only ever use force when 1) you genuienly have no other option and 2) the risks of using force outweigh the risks of not doing so.
Even then, you still must remain proportional.
I am offended by people who assault their partners on many levels, and one of those levels is the obvious lack of self control.
I guess you’ve never been physically assaulted by a woman, or met a woman who just does entirely seriously believe its ok for them to hit a man.
I have.
I just guarded, blocked, and escaped the situation, called and reported an assault.
My idea, my thinking was that it is so obvious that men are capable of and do enact violence against women that … we could take that for granted, and try to add something to the conversation that doesn’t get talked about as often, despite that it does happen nearly as often.
Being a violent bully isn’t sex exclusive.
Same, a few women have escalated to hitting me in an argument.
I might have been being a dick. I might not have.
I didn’t hit them back, but when I was in a relationship with them, I told them that if they ever hit me again, that would be the end of the relationship.
I guess you’ve never been physically assaulted by a woman
No, I haven’t but I have no idea what point you’re trying to make. What you’re saying has no relation to what I said. I said that no one is seriously trying to justify assaulting people for no reason, not that violence is somehow sex exclusive. Maybe you replied to the wrong comment?
I literally just told you the point I was trying to make.
The thing that you are saying no one does or thinks… you are simply wrong, many people think that and do that.
To state it plainly: some people do think it is ok for a woman to physically assault a man.
Maybe less of them will outright say that, that directly, outloud, but actions speak more loudly than words… and we have statistics that catalogue those actions, that I linked to, and referenced, and explained, in my top level comment, that you replied to.
So you think murders and rapists will openly claim that it’s ok to kill and rape people? I think you’re confusing what criminals do and what people argue about online.
some people do think it is ok for a woman to physically assault a man.
Some people think they were kidnapped by an UFO. It still doesn’t make for a valid argument about extraterrestrial life.
I read it the same way.
I’ve seen women hit men as a form of flirting
I had a FWB years ago who would do that up until the day where I wasn’t able to stop the response reflex and punched her right in the tit. Felt kinda bad since it wasn’t exactly consensual, but we did worse than that regularly, so it wasn’t a big deal.
She’d still do it periodically cuz she liked getting punched in the tit, but that was at least negotiated 🤣
I hope most people can tell the difference between a punch which is playful and a punch which is intended to cause serious harm.
Yes, but there are women out there who think because you’re a guy they can hit you as hard as they like. It’s done playfully, but actually it still hurts and isn’t a fun interaction. If you ask them to stop, they’ll usually call you a pussy or a crybaby or some variant.
That isn’t flirting. That’s bullying.
Unless it’s Goku, in which case it’s kinda both?
Me too and when i got fed up and asked her to stop a little louder than the 30 times before, she wasn’t happy at all
I mean, it’d work on me
My brother’s SO does this to him all the time, it feels so gross to me.
I’ve had that happen as like a light tap when I said something teasing them. I think it was a test the waters of “is it okay to touch?” kind of thing. There was never any heat behind it. I’d rather they do that if they’re into me than nothing.
Yeah no this is more forceful then that, semi regular slapping on the chest/face, punching, etc.
He’s never mentions anything about it so its been nothing more than me and my wife noticing and talking about it together but it just feels weird seeing it.
You should tell him that you noticed it and let him know you are a safe person if he needs help exit… if you are that ofc
Or maybe they just like to play rough.
In that case there is no harm voicing your support
Sure, I’m just saying that you shouldn’t assume that it’s an abuse situation.
I wouldn’t consider that flirting.
Equal rights, equal fightsOr how about we don’t start fights with people. That’s called assault.
I would never.
This is the kind of lines I wish I had ready when people say dumb shit to me
I mean the whole thing of “a man should never hit a woman” suddenly sounds a lot more valid when you morph it into “a strong person should never hit a weak person”. Like if you have a physical advantage over somebody else, don’t abuse it.
I really like this edit <3
Strong/weak people of any gender shouldn’t hit other people. But if you choose to start a fight, don’t be surprised when the other person decides to play along.
“Start shit, get hit” is a phrase to live by, because you can’t assume someone is going to take your abuse without giving a little back.
also like, if a stranger starts fighting me, I have no idea how far they’re gonna go. It doesn’t matter if they’re just tryna throw a light punch or w/e, I’m gonna assume my life is in danger and will act accordingly. Anyone willing to fight a stranger is incredibly unstable and dangerous as a default, regardless of gender.
No one should be hitting anyone. If you initiate violence accept the consequences. I’m a small dude, do you think I shouldn’t get my ass beat for punching a bigger guy?
idk i think ppl shouldnt hit other ppl unless it’s with consent or in self defense/defense of others? even if someone is “weaker” they shouldnt hit someone “stronger” without a good reason.
Yeah, otherwise you assume a physically smaller/weaker person cannot be an abuser. Which is plain wrong.
Especially because abuse has many shapes
I feel like that sounds great, but what if somebody calls you like a racial slur or something? There are absolutely non-violent acts that I think would be worthy of a slap in the face.
Why?
No if someone is attacking you, you defend yourself. Don’t punch back full strength, measure your blows.
But in that same vein the weaker person shouldn’t antagonize the stronger person without expecting an appropriate response.
It’s like an argument I always had with my ex. Women claim they’re afraid of men being violent towards them then go out of their way to antagonize all the men around them and then act shocked and act like they’re the victim when the men around them react to their antagonizing.
You can’t have it one way on a two lane road
Never thought to phrase it that way, imma keep that one
How about “don’t hit people”? Being weak doesn’t warrant not being an abuser or a threat.
I like, “don’t start none, won’t be none.” Covers pretty much every situation.
Just getting in before the equal rights and equal lefts chud-brigade turn up.
people keep talking about human rights, but what about human lefts?
Why would i talk about human left? They’re not in the room anymore!
Decent shitpost but wrong community?
yeah, assault is okay in 196 🥰
particularly if they are nazis
nazis aren’t people so human rights don’t apply in the first place.
They are humans, very shitty ones, and it’s still totally okay to punch them in self defense.
I didn’t say they weren’t human. I said they weren’t people. Every horrific monster in human history (history, not mythology), was a human. When humans become monsters, they stop being people.
Nazis are humans, but they are not people.
